DOKAN 6/Dokan 06.iso/Webs/www.nausicaa.net/miyazaki/file-archive/yom.interview

Text File | 1998-09-06 | 45KB | 974 lines

*From 'Yom' June 1994 Issue, Copyright: Iwanami Shoten, 1994.
Translated without permission for the *personal entertainment
purpose only*. The translator is solely responsible for any
mistranslation or misunderstanding due to it.

( ) were added by the translator to supplement or explain the
interview to make it easier to understand.

The interview consists of one long interview and several short
interviews, called 'spot'.  I start translating from 'spots'.

Again, this isn't an accurate word for word translation.  I'm
too lazy to open a dictionary and I don't have a big Japanese-
English dictionary anyway ^^;;.

Many, many thanks to Marc Hairston, Tyler King, and Brian
Stacy for editing :)


Yom Special Story: 'Now, after Nausicaa has finished'

Spot 1: 'Porco Rosso' and the civil war in Yugoslavia

Yom (Y) : After 'Nausicaa', did you make animes according to
your interests at that point in time?  The things you wanted
to do, or things you wanted to see...

Miyazaki (M) : I think I chose each of them because I thought
it was interesting then.  Even when I was obliged to work on a
project, I tried to steer it to the direction I wanted to go.
If I really don't want do it, I won't do it.  But for 'Porco
Rosso', I did things against my intention.

Y : What do you mean?

M : I intended to do totally different things in more
lighthearted way, but I couldn't help but showing my true
feelings (Honne).  Nothing has been sorted out.  I was
supposed to make it as a commercial film maker with a true
confidence, but I lost control of myself.  I'm embarrassed.

Y : What kind of Honne?

M: If you couldn't feel it from the film, that'll be better.
I shouldn't have made the story take place in the Adriatic Sea
in the first place.  Many people think it took place in Italy,
but Porco lives on the Croatian shoreline.  Then it became the
warfield by the civil war.  I was just going to make a story
you can just grin at (Ufufu), but it became more complicated.
Then, I had to read the modern history of Yugoslavia, but
there isn't a consistent history book, and it was very
difficult to make sense out of it. Gosh, I was careless.
I always try to make a film uncomplicated, but somehow, it
gets complicated.  It was the same thing with 'Laputa'.  I
thought I could make it more uncomplicated, but it's
inevitable that my own various thoughts creep in, and make
things complicated.  When I finish making up the story,
somehow, I find I made the story complicated.
Certainly, I made 'Porco' as I wanted.  I couldn't do it in
any other way.  But I also feel kind of humiliated for
changing the plan in the middle, not making it as planned from
the start.  You know, I was going to make a 45 minutes movie,
and it became more than twice as long -laughs-.


Spot 2: Anime is for children

M: Because I made 'Porco', I feltl like I can't retire until I
somehow make one proper film.  I thought I had to produce a
work which is truly for children.

Y: When you started 'Laputa', you said anime has to be for
children.

M: Maybe it's related to what's going on in the society, but
more and more people now don't consider children as their
purpose for making films.  Many of our staff members have
become over thirty without being married or being parents.
When we were at that age, we already had a few children, and
our motivation was such that we wanted to tell them 'Dad made
this'.
I still think Anime has to be made for children.  But, our
situation changes, and I myself change.  While saying 'we
should make it for children', I find myself making a film
which is not for children.
When I reached the conclusion that 'I make what I myself think
is interesting now', it became something that is no longer for
children.
I wish movies for adults were doing better.  I wish such
things as ticket sales or movie awards would go on without
involving anime. (this is a difficult sentence to translate.
What he is saying is, since Japanese live action films have
not been good both quality wise and business wise, anime got
too much attention.  Movie companies expect anime (especially
Ghibli) to make a lot of money, critics praise anime and give
anime movie awards.  He thinks this is too much attention for
anime.)  It would be better if anime lives in a corner of the
movie world, and people say 'Oh, there is also anime'.
If so, I don't have to do interviews or lectures -laughs-.  If
so, directors and animators, all can work pure and poor,
remaining anonymous, just because we want to do the job we can
satisfy ourselves.  It used to center around what we made, and
we could work only by our internal values such as what we
learned in this work, if we made progress, or if we could
foster people (other animators).
I experienced that era.  Seeing from that experience, I feel
although anime is in the limelight, or because of it, things
are more difficult now.
I'm planning an anime for preschoolers now, but it's been very
difficult.

Y: Is it for theater release?

M: Either theater or video release.  No TV.  Unless we make it
an 'event' people have to pay money for, they wouldn't really
watch it.


Spot 3: 'Laputa' and Healthy Passion

Y: After 'Nausicaa', you made 'Laputa'.

M: Things will be easier if a film like 'Laputa' does well.

Y: The numbers weren't good?

M: To tell you the truth, it was about a quarter of
'Nausicaa'.  All the people who liked 'Laputa' said they liked
serious ones better.
But if people come to see a film like 'Laputa', we can think
of various ways of making a movie.  It's true.  Such an
adventure movie needs a healthy energy to make.
I think I myself can't do it anymore, so I want young people
to do it, but there isn't an atmosphere for that.  They rather
like details of daily life.
I want an energetic talent who wants to make adventure stories
to join our staff.  I think that is what Ghibli lacks most.


Spot 4: About Takahata Isao San, About 'Ponpoko'

Y: 'Nausicaa' and 'Laputa' were produced under the producer
Takahata Isao and the director Miyazaki Hayao, but in 1986,
Takahata San directed 'Grave of the Fireflies', and you
directed 'Totoro'.  They were completely separate
productions....

M: Our thoughts about movie making are completely different.
If we discuss a production plan, we definitely won't reach an
agreement.
Same with this 'Ponpoko' (the interview was done just before
'Ponpoko' was released).  All I said was 'Let's go ahead with
Tanuki'.  Although it's credited as 'Producer: Miyazaki
Hayao', the rest of it was Producer Suzuki talking with
Takahata San.  He spent half a year and made Takahata San feel
'OK, I'll do it'.
Once we went into the actual production, I was the 'Urge
Force'.  I don't touch the actual production of the film, I
just push the staff to work.  I'm like a drum beater on a
galley.  Dooon, Dooon, 'Draw!'  -laughs-

Y: But it's amazing that just the one word determines
everything, focuses energies, and makes a movie.  When you
were making 'Nausicaa' or 'Laputa', were your roles divided
clearly?

M: Usually, a producer chooses a director and gives him a
project, but it was reversed in 'Nausicaa'.
I mean, first, the Animage editors of Tokuma Shoten and others
came to me proposing to make a movie of 'Nausicaa'.  So, 'OK,
let's do it'.
Then, if this was a usual case, someone from Tokuma Shoten
would become a producer, but they didn't even have an
animation studio.  And I definitely couldn't do everything.
So, I asked them 'Please ask Takahata San to be a producer'.
I heard that Takahata San said yes after he used up an entire
notebook to sort his thoughts out, but I know he didn't want
to do it. -laughs-
In truth, a director can't produce other people's film.  You
can't possibly run out of bad words if you start criticizing
other people's films.  If two directors have a one on one
argument, there will be bloodshed.-laughs-

Y: So, Takahata San and you have been building a firm
relationship in which you can delegate to each other.

M: Delegating or not, I just take it as 'You gave me this
project, so that means I can do it as I want'.  If one meddles
into the other's work, we can never reach an agreement, we
definitely have such a relationship.
So, I didn't say a word even when we were making 'Yanakawa
Horiwari Monogatari'.  But when he said the film was going to
be 4 hours long, I said 'sorry, I can't allow it' (the
original Japanese was 'Chotto Kanbenshite').

Y: It was 2 hours and 45 minutes after all.  But I didn't feel
it was so long.

M: I think two hours would have been better if we wanted more
people to see it, but we can't do anything about it
(shouganai).  From the moment we chose Takahata Isao as the
director, it was destined to end up like that.
Movies are such things.  We can't do it with a movie for
general public, but we can do it with that kind of film.  With
that, we let go of our frustrations we'd been accumulating.
Feels wonderful to say 'it doesn't matter if tickets sell or
not'.  Actually, we are patiently recovering the investment a
bit by bit.


Spot 5: Kiki's Delivery Service

M: Originally, I was not supposed to do 'Kiki'.  What I did
was just set up the project.  When this project was proposed
to us, I said 'This is a good project for the young staff
members', and lined up the young staff members and started the
project.  However, I didn't like the presented screenplay.
So, I said if no one would write, I would write, and I wrote
one.  Then, the young director got intimidated and didn't want
to direct.  After all, I got myself into directing it.  I got
trapped by myself.


Spot 6 : Things I can't do even if I want to do.

Y: You were the producer of 'Omohide Poro Poro', but the film
was definitely Takahata-San's world.

M: I regard myself as a person of Tsuuzoku (popular) movies
(this 'popular' is that of 'popular culture'), and I think
I'll continue to make Tsuuzoku movies, but on the other hand,
somewhere inside of me, I have started feeling that I don't
want to make a Tsuuzoku movie.
And, Takahata San is more so.  If we let him, he'll make an
animation which won't earn a cent -laughs-.  Such as Ainu's
Yukara (the folk tales and myths of Japan's northern
aboriginal people, Ainu).  He's been saying he wants to do it,
but that's absolutely impossible here -laughs-.  I insist that
it'll be like digging a grave hole for the studio and you
can't do such a thing....  I myself have such a side, but I
try to control it as much as possible.  That's the way it is
(shikatanai).  It's better if we go six feet under with a few
projects we wanted, but we couldn't.
I think it's impossible to do everything you want.  You have
to make such a movie in a different place from a movie which
one or two million people pay to see and get satisfied.
When I watch a movie such as Talkovsky's (sp?) 'Stalker', I
feel, 'This SOB is doing as he pleases!'.  I think he is such
a talented guy.  The thing I'm most impressed about Gaudi is
that he was very successful in getting sponsors, his political
power rather than his works.  How many people got deceived by
his talent - I think such an aspect is also a part of a
talent.
I think animation is something a bit more Tsuuzoku and we have
to know our boundaries - what we can do.


Now, we are in the main interview.

Interview: 'The story won't end' - Miyazaki Hayao

'The work I wasn't sure I could finish'

Y: 'Nausicaa' has ended after 13 years.

M: There are 59 episodes, so if we simply sum up, it has been
5 years. But with time after and before that (the time for
preparation?), actually, I probably spent about half of these
12-13 years on 'Nausicaa'.
To tell you the truth, this was the work I kept wondering if I
could finish since the time I started.  I could say that I was
able to write without thinking ahead because I decided that I
could stop anytime.  I was working like 'it turned out this
way', not 'I want things to go this way'.

Y: Is that so?  Since it's a story world with such a big plot,
which can be called an epic drama, we thought you had a
detailed story plan from the beginning to the end, and you've
been writing it up patiently, taking your time.

M: No, No, I don't have such a planning capability.  I wrote
something because I was facing a deadline, and I realized the
meaning of it much later.  I had such experiences many times.

Y: The movie was released in 1984, after three years you
started the manga, and this year, ten years later, it has
concluded.  During this time there have been many words,
including some criticism, about it.

M: There seem to be people who read the manga with the
impression they got from the movie.  They accepted Nausicaa as
a warrior for environmentalism, and they never went beyond
that preconceived notion.  It could be said that the manga
failed to have such a power (to change these people's
preconceptions).

Y: The story itself is very different between the manga and
the movie. Also, in the manga, we can see a more complicated
side of Nausicaa's personality.

M: Of course, it is.  If the manga and the movie were the
same, it makes no sense that I continued to write the manga.
I wasn't sure if or how I could start writing it again, but
there were some parts in the movie which I wasn't completely
satisfied with, so I forced myself to continue.  To tell the
truth, it was like, I'd run away from the desk when I had  to
stop writing to make the next movie.
That's not a thing I can proudly say.  Even after I finished
the next movie, and had had some time off, it was hard for me
to return to Nausicaa. In the end, I stoped writing it four
times.

Y: The movie became the flag bearer for the ecology movement,
which was just beginning to boom in the 1980s...

M: I myself wasn't thinking about it at all, but I think it
happened to be there.  It was what we had been thinking about
for much longer, and it started with such things as the book
of Nakao Sasuke San.
I mean, I didn't start 'Nausicaa' to write a story about the
ecology for the sake of environmental protection.
At first, I intended to write a story which took place in a
desert, but it wasn't interesting when I put it into drawings,
so I changed it to the forest.  Then, it became that kind of
story.
In that sense too, I didn't have any big plot. The writing
process was such that 'it looks that way, so let's go that
way'.  I faced a writer's block, so I wanted to have something
huge, so, the sleeping God Warrior...  This one too, I just
wrote it into the story saying such thing as 'What's gonna
happen?  I'm in trouble'.  I continued working, telling myself
such lies as 'It'll work out eventually.  The magazine will go
out of business before that...' -laughs-

Y: What did you try to write when you were thinking about a
desert?

M: I really don't remember.  I know I must have been thinking
many things....  The only thing I remember is that I was so
irritated.  It's the fact that I was disgusted with the way
the society works or such things.

Y: Was it around 1981, 82?

M: It was right before or after 1980.  (I was disgusted with)
not only environmental problems, but also where humans were
going.  Mostly, the way Japan was.  And I was most disgusted
with the way I was at that time.

Y: So during the height of the bubble economy you were....

 M: I was so embarrassed.  I was so angry.  Am I calmed down
now?  I think the target for my frustration has moved
somewhere....


'When I finished the movie, I was cornered'

Y: So, if you didn't have a plot to the end at the beginning,
wasn't it
 hard when it was decided to make the movie 'Nausicaa'?

M: I was really in trouble.  If it had been another person's
story, I could've attacked it, but it had just come out from
inside of me, so I couldn't objectify it.  Even if they
weren't written in the manga, behind each panel, I have my own
delusions, thoughts, and feelings.  Using the same motives as
in the manga, yet, rearranging them, changing their meanings,
I had to put them inside such a boundary so I could conclude
the story.
A movie has to both open the story up and close it.  Some may
say 'No, opening up is enough', but I'm a person who makes
entertainment movies, so I think about the boundary I can
close the story in.
I can't do more than that with the movie.  The important thing
is that Nausicaa made the Copernican turn when she found the
meaning, the role, and the system of the sea of corruption.  I
had decided that that was how far the movie would go, but I
had so many things I couldn't put inside that boundary, and I
couldn't sort them out.
It was of course impossible since I decided to write what I
couldn't do in movies into the manga to begin with.

Y: So, that's why 'Nausicaa' the manga and the movie were
totally different works.  That's because there is a way of
opening and closing the story in a movie.

M: Even if I had to make the movie 'Nausicaa' now, after I
finished the manga, I would make the same movie.  I don't
think that'll change.

Y: Didn't how you ended the movie influence the manga after
that?

M: As I said before, the movie had concluded, and I wasn't
writing the manga to replicate it.  I didn't think about what
I did in the movie at all.  Anyway, I forgot what I did -
laughs-.
But when I was making the movie 'Nausicaa', I was insisting
that I was making 'Nausicaa' with 'wishes', not 'this is the
way reality is'.  But, when I finished the movie, I found
myself deeply immersed in the religious domain that I didn't
want to get into very much.  I thought 'this wasn't good', and
I was really driven into a tight corner.
So, after the movie, I told myself that I would approach the
problem more seriously to continue the manga, but once I
started, there were so many things I couldn't understand.
From the beginning to the end, I ended up writing with a whole
lot of things I couldn't understand.

Y: It was longer after you finished the movie.

M: Yes.  So, there might have been readers coming and going,
and I wrote it in the magazine thinking that they might not
understand what's going on (because they joined in the middle
of the story).  However, I ended up thinking too much about
things I can't understand at all.

Y: You mean?

M: If we take the (existence of) god as a premise, we can
explain the world by that.  But I can't do that.  And yet, I
stepped into the area I didn't want to get into, such as
humans and life.
I can manage to understand the world as conflicts and
contradictions among humans, but I find myself not being
satisfied with that level (of explanation).
Then I have nothing I can say with confidence.
My head gets dizzy by just thinking what would you do if you
are called 'mama' by a God Warrior with such a destructive
power.  So, Nausicaa's perplexity is just my own perplexity.

Y: Near the end of the manga, the God Warrior had a role
totally different from that in the movie....

M: You can find a meeting with a giant one who gives you a
power in many popular cultures.  Such as the elephant herd in
'Tarzan', or 'Tetsujin 28go (Giganto)'.  The reason why they
appear so many times in different shapes can be explained as
our wish to return to a huge existence or our impulse for
growing up, or something like that.  Usually in the popular
culture, it's made ambiguous by just saying that a huge power
is OK if it's good.
Actually, most of the power has been made by technologies.  I
think a technology itself is neutral and innocent.  It's same
with automobiles.  They are loyal and truly devoted to
drivers.
We feel safe thinking machines have no heart, but actually,
men give machines hearts.  A loyal heart,  innocent devotion,
and self sacrifice are the machines' essence.  It's like a dog
obeying the orders of a master no  matter how evil the  master
is.  I think the thought that humans give hearts to  machines
is the base of Asimov's 'Three Rules of Robotics'.  The God
Warrior in Nausicaa is not that original an idea.  The design,
too, you can find its root in many preexisting designs.  But,
the moment I gave a tangible shape to 'innocence', it became
something I can't control.  I think I gave it a shape because
I have a strong yearning for innocent ones.....

Y: The story changed after the God Warrior became cognizant.

M: When I'm writing this kind of story, I have no choice but
to think that even just a thought occurred to me or some
meaningless pieces do have meanings to me.  Even though the
structure of the work would collapse, I shouldn't forget those
pieces.  No, I can't explain it well.
I think there may have been people who could explain it with
deeper, sharper, more proper words long before I started
thinking.  I painfully realized I don't have such a
capability.

Y: Is that what you mean by a religious domain?

M: Many things in a human's mind which are said to be
meaningful, you might call them attributes such as various
thoughts or beliefs, I think they might actually exist in
nature....
We get confused because we get various worldly desires.  But
I'm afraid that I feel if we want to go beyond such desires
and go somewhere pure, we might reach somewhere such as an
ordinary stone or water drops.  But in the moment we put these
kinds of thoughts into words, everything becomes a
disreputable religion.  I can not possibly write ('these kinds
of thoughts'), I haven't reached such a stage or anything.
After all, I started caring more for the God Warrior than for
humans.

Y: Or, we start caring more for Ohmu (than for humans).  When
we are reading 'Nausicaa', many such things happen...


'I lost words'

(So did I.  It's really difficult to translate these
'philosophical' conversations ^^;;  If you can't understand
this interview, it's half my fault, half Miyazaki-San's fault
-Ryo)

M: Falling into such a situation, for me, things haven't been
sorted out.  While I sometimes think it's like 'Dr.
Strangelove', I don't even know if it's really strange.
Things which we think are characteristics of humans, such as
feelings, even they might be shared with the simplest virus in
this world.  Maybe it's just those things we share (with other
life forms) are only evoked inside humans. It'll be impossible
(to think this kind of stuff), unless I study (Shugyo) with a
better brain.  I think I shouldn't put them into words until
then.
I was falling into that kind of situation.  Even though I
thought that it's dangerous, I couldn't help but go that way
because I had already written the God Warrior (into the story)
10 years ago.  I can't say 'I wrote it, but I forgot about it'
-laughs-.
So, I was just following behind the story, rather than
creating it.

Y: The story moved itself...

M: Rather than moving, it was just there.  And it wouldn't
move in the direction I wanted.  And yet, I had to force the
story to move in the direction I wanted even though I myself
thought it was fairly false.  But I don't like doing this.
In the end, could Nausicaa, the girl who had to carry such
burdens on her shoulders go back to the ordinary life?  Could
such a person continue to live without going mad?  The only
thing I know is that even though she won't be able to go back,
she will continue to be there, and she (or we? he didn't
specify the subject) will continue to witness it.

Y: There was a sort of solution in the movie, but in the
manga, from the beginning Nausicaa asked many questions.  And
without solving them, it ended with more and more questions
asked.

M: Yes.  I couldn't help but to ask the question of what a
life is, the question I knew from the beginning I couldn't
answer.
My dog is 16 years old, and he can die any day.  He can hardly
see.  He can smell only a little, only one of his ears works a
bit.  But, he is still alive.
When I see his face, he doesn't look that happy, but when I
try to take him out for a walk, he looks a little bit happy.
I wonder what a life is.  It's strange since I've lost both of
my parents, yet I think about this when I see my dog, but for
example, I think he is no longer the dog he was.  Ripples
spread through water surface, and as they spread, they
gradually diminish.  They are the same ripples, but they are
not the same strong ripples right after they were born - maybe
I can understand that way.
There are many things said such as a life form is a carrier of
selfish genes, but after all, we can't understand with (such
explanations).  Maybe from old times, great people thought
about these kinds of things.  I mean, I'm just beginning to
understand that they seemed to have felt something even before
such things as studies were established.

Y: You learn that there are many things you can't
understand.....

M: Yes.  I understand that I can't just simply and
superficially explain the relationship between nature and
humans, or the nature inside a human.  However, to live is the
way to keep this 'superficial balance', so I can say we'd
better do such and such to keep a balance.
But if I go deeper than that, I face such chaotic questions as
in which I have to face the darkness of the universe.  And it
seems that the key to these kinds of questions is held in the
thoughts of the people of the past who hid themselves in
mountains, rather than in our own heads.
These days, I get startled when I hear religious words which I
had ignored before.  I feel, 'Oh, this has also been talked
about'.  Behind simple words, for example, in an elementary
textbook for Buddhism, there are great experiences or many
such things.  I can feel that, but that's just about it.  I
can't understand them completely on my own. I'm just at a
loss.
The moment I copy the words, they start changing.  But unlike
such people as Shinran (the famous monk who started a Buddhist
cult in Japan) who wrote them down without fearing (the change
of meaning through the transition from thoughts to words), I
can't do this.  I decided not to make Nausicaa say these
things since it's inevitable that they would sound untrue.
I thought I understood things more clearly, but as I wrote
'Nausicaa', it actually became more difficult for me to sort
things out.  I mean, it was like I lost words.
It was just like Nausicaa herself was out of words, and I
thought I didn't want to express it with words.  The moment I
put 'I think this is this' into words, it becomes a different
thing.

Y: Shortly after Nausicaa decided 'I'll keep lying', the story
ends...

M: It suits more to my heroine, it just became that way.  I
have no choice but to think that it is her love toward the
lives around her.
Anyway, 'we are right, and we beat the enemy and the peace
will come' is a lie.  At least, I can definitely say that's a
lie.  There *are* good and bad things.  You can do good
things.  But, a person who does good things is not necessarily
a good person.  It just means s/he 'did good things'.  In the
next moment, s/he can do bad things.  That is a human.  Unless
we think that way, we misjudge everything, including political
decisions, and oneself.


'The collapse of the Soviet Union was easier than that of
Doruk'

Y: During the time you were writing 'Nausicaa', many incidents
occurred inside and outside Japan.  Was there something you
were influenced by?

M: The most shocking thing was the civil war in Yugoslavia.

Y: You mean?

M: I thought they wouldn't do it again.  I thought they were
tired of doing such things since they had done such horrible
things before, but they weren't.  I leaned that humans never
get enough.  It taught me how I was naive.

Y: And unlike the Gulf War, it was an old type war.

M: In a sense, the Gulf war is easy to understand.  The Iraqi
government is very similar to the Japanese government during
the war (World War II).  They just send soldiers to some
island or desert, and tell them 'you are on your own', without
sending any water or food. It was painful to see such a
military since it was like looking at the Japanese military.
But it's different in Yugoslavia.
I think it was started by a few gangs.  But we couldn't stop
it.  It's just like when Nazism was growing in Germany, many
people who were there said they were just a bunch of gangs,
but they grew into an unstoppable power.
For example, when we watch news such as CNN, it seems that the
Serbs are overwhelmingly evil.  But if you get to the bottom
of it, it's somewhat different.  There is definitely a
conflict between Western Europe and the Greek Orthodoxy within
Christianity.  So, no wonder Serbs doubt NATO.  They would
rather have the Russians.
Then, are Serbs right?  No. Both are really stupid, and both
commit many unspeakable acts.  Even if there is such a thing
as justice, once a war has started, any war will become
corrupt.  That's a war.

Y: Nausicaa also said 'there is no justice'.

M; I read various things since I like (reading about) war.
So, people ask me such questions as 'Do you like war?'.  I
answer them 'Do you think AIDS researchers love AIDS?', but I
was forced to realize that my understanding of history was
really naive.

Y: How about the collapse of the Soviet Union?

M: It happened just when I was writing the collapse of a
country called Doruk in 'Nausicaa'.  Writing it, I myself was
wondering if it could be possible for such an empire as Doruk
to collapse so easily, so I was really surprised since the
Soviet Union collapsed much easier.
A country collapses and, at the same time, people can go on
living their daily lives. Such a thing can really happen.  I
had been wondering for a long time about what had happened,
what had become of those people who were living when the
Western Roman Empire fell, but with the collapse of the Soviet
Union, I sort of got the answer for that.

Y: I'll say, that's a good correlation....

M: So, there were many things I should have written about the
collapse of the Doruk Empire.  But, on the other hand, I'm
embarrassed to say that there was a limit to my productivity,
16 pages per month, so there were many things I couldn't
write.  Why did the country fall, or to begin with, what is a
country?  What kind of system did they have, why did the
system stop working...  I knew I had to write these things,
but while I was making the excuse that I didn't have the time
for that, the empire fell on its own in the manga, and in the
real world, the Soviet Union, too....


''Nausicaa' has changed my way of thinking'

M: During the time I was trying to conclude 'Nausicaa', I did
what some might think is a turnabout.  I totally forsook
Marxism.  I had no choice but to forsake it.  I decided that
it is wrong, that historical materialism is also wrong, and
that I shouldn't see things with it.  And this is a bit hard.
Even now, I sometimes think that things would be easier if I
had not changed.
It's not that I changed dramatically, or changed by fighting
(myself) relentlessly while I was writing, but various
questions inside me became overwhelming.
I think that this clear change in my way of thinking came from
my writing 'Nausicaa', rather than the change of my position
in this society.
For example, at first, I even hesitated in making Nausicaa a
daughter of the Chieftain Ghil - in short, a princess.  I
thought some might say such things as Nausicaa is in a sort of
elite class, so I thought of ways (to justify my choice).
But these things became meaningless to me.  It doesn't matter
where she was born.  I don't want to have a discussion about
such things anymore. No matter which class one is born into, a
stupid person is a stupid person, and a nice one is a nice
one.  It's not that one is right or wrong, it's just whether
s/he is a nice guy, whether I want to become a friend with
him/her.  There are just such (a distinction of) people in
this world.  I stopped seeing things by class.  It's a lie
that one is right just because s/he is a laborer.  The general
public do many stupid things.  I can't trust polls.
With these kinds of things, I'm just going back to basics.
This is not something eye-opening, it's been said many times.
If I think about going back there again, I feel really dark,
but I think I have to accept that.  I think I have to see
things on my own.
When I first saw the film of Mao Tse-tung receiving cheers
from the big crowd in Tiananmen Square, I think it was the end
of the 1950s, I felt his face was really inauspicious and ill
favored.  But since I was told that he had a big warm
personality or such things, I thought maybe he happened to be
ill and wasn't photogenic on that day -laughs- , I really
thought so.  But thinking back, I should've trusted my first
feeling.
I did such things many times.  I always tried to overpower my
feelings with my ideals.  I stopped doing so.  I also look at
the contemporary politicians just with my impressions.

Y: With your intuition...

M: The feeling that this is a nice person, rather than an
intuition.  Even if s/he doesn't have a political capability,
this is a nice person.  We can't expect big things from them
anyway, so the nicest one is better.  I'm at the stage of
seeing things tentatively with that level (of thinking).  In
short, I went back to being stupid.

Y: Isn't it like climbing spiral stairs rather than going
back?

M: I feel I might be just going round and round....  For
example, there is a National Trust Movement called 'Totoro's
Forest Movement', and they use the characters from the movie
we made to promote the movement (they use Totoros as the
symbol characters), but I'm cooperating not because they are
right.  It's because those who are in the movement are such
nice people.  They are so down to earth.
They are people who have loved the Sayama Hills (where
'Totoro' was supposed to take place) long before they started
the movement, they walked around to see plants and birds when
they had free time, and kept thinking how they could do
something about the place.  Because they are such people, we
are happy to let them use our characters.  If someone like a
fascist of ecology is in charge, I'd pull out.
Like that, these days, I associate with people not because
they are right or wrong, but because they are nice.  So, my
world is getting smaller and smaller -laughs-.


'Solving' the environmental problem by cleaning up the river
in the neighborhood'

Y: How about the Japan you said you were disgusted with at
before you started 'Nausicaa'?

M: Well, I passed the stage of feeling that 'it serves them
right' after the bubble burst (the collapse of the stock and
the land markets in the late 80s), and I'm feeling refreshed
now.  The problems haven't been solved at all, but this breaks
down the wall, and things outside are coming in (in his other
interview, he talked about a story of a noble's house
surrounded by a wall to protect it from all the poverty and
the misery outside).
The rice shortage was nothing (there was a huge rice shortage
in Japan in 1993).  It's not like people were starving.  I was
rather amazed by the economic power, though.

Y: You mean, if we want to, we can buy (from outside).

M: If this had happened in 1940s, it would have been a huge
problem, but now we get by with just some complaints such as
"Thai rice don't taste as good" (not to offend someone from
Thailand, the problem was that Japanese weren't used to the
long grain rice, and didn't know how to
cook them ^^;;).  I thought this was an amazing power (i.e.,
the economic power of Japan).  At the same time, I also
thought it's hard for a country without an economic power to
survive...
I'm tired of discussing the Japanese agriculture.  If I may
say so though I might get misunderstood.
I happened to meet a farmer who said he would keep producing
organic rice without pesticide, so I decided to buy rice from
him, even if the
price went up in a bad crop year.  With it, the agricultural
problem at my home were solved -laughs-.
Of course, it wouldn't be any solution, but I don't like such
sensational expressions as 'Japanese agriculture has lost' as
much as I don't like 'Japanese movies are dead', though I can
understand the anger (since the government decided to import
rice, which had been 'sacred' and well protected, there were
many heated debates about the future of the Japanese farmers
who are so dependent on rice).
I feel somehow, that's not it.  It's not something you lose or
win so easily.  I only get irritated when I hear the
agricultural cooperation being this or that while we are
discussing the agricultural problems.  I just want to solve it
at a personal level. It's not something I can proud of. But,
even so...  It's different if someone is starving to death,
though.
These days, I can only think that way.  Environmental
problems, too.  Since the people in the community are cleaning
up the river in my neighborhood, I join them when I have the
time.  I think that's just fine.  But this won't solve any
problems either.  It just means we are picking up discarded
plastic bags or something, you know.
In short, there are so many things we can't do anything about
if we think about generalities.  Things won't go well because
there is a huge gap between the generalities and the
particulars.  But, a human can often be satisfied with the
particulars.  That's what I like best these days.
If we see generalities from the top of a mountain or from a
plane, we feel it's hopeless, but if we go down, there is a
nice road running about 50M, we feel this is a nice road, and
if the weather is fine and shining, we feel we can go on.  I
wonder why we feel so differently depending on our viewpoints.
I think that doing such things suit me better than talking
about big things on a stage at a symposium or a lecture.  But
I will drive a car and cause pollution.  If everyone has to
stop, I'll stop, but even so, I'll continue to drive to the
last.  Raise the gas price to 300 Yen per liter -laughs-  Gee,
I'm shooting my mouth off as I please, aren't I?.

Y: If so, there won't be so many cars.

M: I get so angry when I hear someone say 'If we lower the gas
price, it'll stimulate the Japanese economy'.  Only those who
are willing to pay the price should drive.  Everyone driving a
car isn't a progress or an equality among humans, or anything.
Now, we have the problem of popularization of everything.
Since I myself belong to the general public, even though I see
a picture of the Zeppelin and want to ride an airship, if I
had been there in that era, I would've belonged to those who
could not ride one.  Even so, I don't think we'd better make
an era where everyone can ride an airship.
I'm thinking about putting soil and grass on the roof of this
building (Studio Ghibli) this year.  This won't solve any
problem either, but it's better to act than just being angry.
I heard that the heating and cooling costs would also change
by doing so.  Many people would say it won't be a big
solution, and it isn't, but I think if I can do it, I want to
do it.
There is a photographer who is working for a project to invite
children who got radiation in Chernobyl to Japan and give them
treatments.  After  staying in Japan for a month, they become
much healthier since they are getting better nutrition, too.
For example, a child who had stopped growing started growing
again.
But he knows that the child will go back to the previous state
once he returns home a month later.  And he is agonized by the
thought that
even though he brings ten kids or so to Japan, it'll be of no
use for the rest of the several ten thousands kids.  I think
that's just fine - though if I say so, I'd be misunderstood -
I think that's what humans can do.
'Is it meaningless if the child die?' No, it isn't.  Maybe,
what those children felt at that time is everything.  But, the
moment I put these kind of things into words, it will be
grossly misunderstood somewhere. It's difficult.  If we try to
judge by results, many things become difficult.  If I say
'this moment is important', someone might take it as that we
just have to care only about this moment.  It's difficult.
It's really difficult to put into words.

Y: It's easy to pick on words.  Whatever you say, you can get
picked on.

M: There are many things I can't put into words.  I say 'We
just have to clean the river', because so many people put the
'eco mark' (sort of 'recyclable' mark in the US.  It's to tell
'environmentally correct' products in Japan) on me, so I
just...

Y: You say these things intentionally to create a controversy.

M: Yes.  In truth, I don't want to say anything.  I'd better
act and not say a word.  It's better if I think that I do this
because it's a communal effort.


'Leaving what I don't understand as it is'

Y: After you had made the movie 'Nausicaa', and while you kept
writing 'Nausicaa', you made animes such as 'Laputa',
'Totoro', 'Kiki', and 'Porco Rosso'.  These are different
types of anime from 'Nausicaa'.

M: I think I was able to make them because I was writing
'Nausicaa'. I had 'Nausicaa' as the heaviest one.  It's
painful to go back to the world of 'Nausicaa', and I don't
want to go back.  Even though I'm writing it in this world,
writing such a thing makes it difficult for me to return to
society.

Y: You keep removing yourself?

M: Yes.  But, if I'm in the middle of a movie production, it's
a big fuss.  I get my attention pulled by every trivial daily
detail.  'Why is he goofing off?' or 'He'd better get a wife'
-laughs-, or that kind of stuff.  It's really worldly.  And we
make a fuss about if people come to see it or not.
After finishing a movie, being stupefied, I take a off, and
then, 'Nausicaa' is waiting.  I hate this.  I wander around it
half a year or so, and then I start writing since I have no
choice.  But, as I said before, to tell the truth, I made
movies partly because I wanted to escape from 'Nausicaa'.
I didn't intend to do the light stuff because I was doing the
heavy stuff here, but if I hadn't been writing 'Nausicaa', I
think I would have struggled trying to put a bit heavier stuff
into the movies.  That's what I think now, looking back.  I
didn't think that way then, and I made them because I thought
that kind of movie was good.
It wasn't like I planned to write 'Nausicaa', so I don't think
I will ever do anything like it again.

Y: What are your perspectives after you concluded 'Nausicaa'?

M: Concluding 'Nausicaa' doesn't mean that the events have
ended or concluded.  Things will keep on going endlessly, but
we came to the point of 'From here, you know (what will
happen)'.  I mean, we came to the same starting point as that
of our modern day world which is difficult to understand.
From this point, countless stupid things will happen, and
there will be efforts to cope with them, too.  And they will
repeat them over and over again.  I tried to conclude at the
point we could see that.
I realized this while I was writing, but the role of Nausicaa
is not one of actually being a leader, or of leading people.
Like a representative, she keeps looking at things, the role
is as a sort of medium.
And the structure (of the story) was such that the people who
trusted Nausicaa kept moving things.  So, it's not a plot in
terms of  how stories are usually structured.  I was troubled
about this, too.
So, it concluded for now, but I have many things I have to
sort out such as these by the time the last volume will be
published.  But I decided to end it for now, leaving things I
couldn't understand as they are.
Otherwise, I can't finish the work I started in my early 40s
and I can't grow old.  Actually, the moment I finished
writing, I started feeling that I became a really old man
(Jijii).
But, nothing has ended.  So, I don't feel relieved at all.  I
wish I could say I left my burden.  I thought things would
become easier for me, but they didn't.  I thought it would be
easier since I didn't have to write it anymore, but, it just
meant the second most painful work was promoted to the most
painful one. -laughs-.

Y: Anyway, at least we can see there are still many issues.

M : Yes.  And Nausicaa knows this best.

The end.

Owatta, Owatta, Owattaaaaa~~~~~~

 (dance of joy)
 ......Sorry, I momentarily lost myself.  Phew, I didn't know
what Iwas getting into...

Anyway, I hope you all enjoyed this series :).

 Ryo